Investment Trusts Investing

Is there a fairly easy resource that shows OEIC and their IT equivalents?
Or at least how would you go about finding an IT for a given OEIC?

As far as I’m aware, there’s no comprehensive list of OEICs and their IT equivalents.

There are many more funds (1000s) than trusts (300ish), so I’d start with the latter then look up whether the provider also offers an OEIC equivalent.

Here are a few of the popular Baillie Gifford ones:

SMT = BG Long-term Global Growth (LTGG)
MNKS = BG Global Alpha
EWI = BG Global Discovery
PHI = BG Pacific

It’s similar with other managers. I’m sure there’s an open-ended version of CGT, for example.

It’s worth noting that the portfolio often differs, so they’re not carbon copies, eg LTGG doesn’t include private companies as SMT does due to the nature of the wrapper.

You could also do this with proxies, eg BNKR or FCIT for VWRL. Watch out for stamp duty though.

3 Likes

@Dougal1984 you must be quids in.

1000008068
1000008069

4 Likes

North America at -26% is a little surprising. That must be PSH and CGI dragging the average down. They’re two of the biggest and I’d imagine this is weighted in some way.

I’ve been buying a fair chunk of PSH despite never quite being able to fully get my head around the reason for the big discount. Anyone got any thoughts on why it’s so wide?

1 Like

I am now yes. Flipped most of my OEIC positions to Trusts to take advantage of the discounts. Now it’s just a waiting game :upside_down_face:

Repost:

@Dougal1984 if you don’t mind me asking, which trusts have you found with a good discount and good management. I bought JLEN after I posted and that has had a nice rise but always on the look-out for others (I’ve bought several all now in profit)

Check out the AIC website and the sectors highlighted in @krr13’s post above.

Big discounts can be a value trap, though. You can wind up with a Home Reit if you’re not careful.

The more I delve into investment trusts, the more I realise discounts don’t matter all that much.

Yes, it’s nice to nab a bargain but how the underlying assets perform is much more important in the long term.

@topher yes I try to avoid REIT unless there is a compelling reason. I’m not a big fan of trusts/funds because the returns are often fairly modest but with luck and good timing they can give a decent return fairly quickly. I bought JLEN a week or two ago and up 7% net on that and I bought SMT in the Aug and Oct dips both times with a good return. SMT is a good example because the market seemed to fall out of love with SMT (in part for good reason - eg internal management conflict) but taking the view that they would sort some of that out it seemed like a good bet

1 Like

It depends if you’re trading or investing really. I’m a buy-and-hold investor and most of mine have outperformed the index which isn’t too shabby.

If you’re trying to make a quick buck then you are probably better off with individual stocks as there are more short-term opportunities.

Part of me’s kicking myself for not pulling the trigger on MNTN over the summer but I’m happy with a 7-10% annual return for more modest risk.

2 Likes

Ditto to this, just makes life simpler buying good stocks at a good entry point.

Thanks I really appreciate both of your views. If I could find funds/trusts that provide a decent base return I would like to hold some funds just on the basis of diversity and risk management but I do generally take a trader view of things (not necessarily day trading). One aspect of my trading strategy is to hold long term but use volatility to accumulate by using trades to simply keep my original investment constant but gradually increase the shares (ie sell at a peak and buy back a little cheaper with both transactions being the same $ value so I gain shares).

Thats sort of what I do with trusts - flip between the OEIC and IT based on the ITs premium/discount.

I dont think @topher likes FCIT, but it generally tracks the FTSE all world index, and I used to buy it when at a discount and flip at a premium. I seen it at the time as a ‘no brainer’ attempt to beat the standard index funds.

Now check the long term discount/premium:

  1. in the last 10 years it has slowly tracked/beaten VWRL.
  2. The discount to NAV generally fluctuates between -15% and 3%.

I generally swap when the discount narrows more than 5%, and then swap back when it drops. In this instance I flipped 3x and made an extra 17% return but then nothing is guaranteed so you need to be prepared to play the long game.

https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/fc-investment-trust/performance

The advantage of ITs is when they make good use of gearing.

2 Likes

It’s not so much that I don’t like FCIT. It’s perfect for what you describe. I held it once and it’s a decent core holding for a portfolio.

The hurdle I can never get over is the fact that it more or less just mirrors the index over the very long-term, so I may as well just buy a tracker.

Let me help - it has a better track record, and its discount/premium varies so if you are patient you can take advantage of it.

1 Like

It’s only relatively marginal over the true long term though. 9.2% vs 8.5% for the index and an 8.8% average for trusts, according to the below. It hardly seems that worth it to me but each to their own and, of course, the past doesn’t predict the future.

1 Like

I’m very much in this boat, having steadily chucked a lot of cash into the market to take advantage of historically wide discounts :point_down:

2 Likes

Any thoughts why so high discounts?

Do you think that discounts/premiums in ITs are investors’ sentiment reflexes (show the investors’ fear/greed sentiments)?

Possible motif: Is the UK social/political/economic situation impacting the British investor, provoking the selling of their assets to have liquidity to pay their bills?

It seems that that ITs are more impacted than ETFs or OEIC/open-ended funds (comparing only the NAV returns).

Btw, what the hell happened to buzz IT, the SMT? The king is dead?

1 Like

At its heart, I think it’s lack of demand.

Average-Joe/Jane investor is buying a cheap tracker, whether ETF or OEIC. That’s rightly the prevailing wisdom as it’s going to serve most well.

There’s a relentless focus on costs nowadays. Many see a 1% fee and flee.

ETFs are free of stamp duty; it’s never nice paying a 0.5% entry fee for ITs.

This proposed change would help a little in terms of cost comparisons.

A big reason may simply be that most of the listed sectors have been seriously shitty places to be invested recently.

Many own illiquid assets too, so you’d expect a fair ol’ discount for that.

Gearing seems to amplify everything as well.

I’m keeping faith in SMT for the long run. With its strategy, volatility is to be expected.

1 Like

I don’t think its anything to do with people having to pay bills.

I’d suspect that it is a combination of factors but they may include:

  • the performance of many funds hasn’t been great
  • its easy to invest in either low-cost trackers or individual equities
  • it is hard to get excited “oh I own a share of an IT” compared to “I’ve bought Tesla/Microsoft/Apple…”
  • the return people could make this year with some individual stocks (eg US tech) is much greater and higher profile
  • if you want to you can create a pie with zero management fee and the ability to modify it at will and even if you were tempted by an IT you can see its major holdings and copy them adjusting weightings for those that you like or dislike (yes I know performance isn’t that simple but…)
2 Likes

A few more Investment Trust and their equivalent funds :smiley:
It also indicates their correlation based on a source from 2021.

It could be a good starting point for further research :smiley: .

imagen
imagen

Link: https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/news/2021/03/12/investment-trusts-versus-their-sibling-funds/

4 Likes