Crypto blockchain companies

This looks very attractive but I feel at this point that I’d be buying in just to jump on the band wagon. How long can the Bitcoin bubble last? I remember it went from 20k to 3.5k last time it hit it’s ATH. It’s 26.5k at the moment. It may come crashing down again. It’s a weird instrument, it’s only backed by time and electricity and driven by supply and demand just for the sake of supply and demand. I don’t know anybody who’s purchased anything with it and it seems to be still considered digital gold.

If it does drop to the low thousands again I’ll pick some up!

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Yeah I’m not chasing these stocks. It’s all about finding them before they get pumped.

Once it starts getting ramped by every retail with a YouTube account then it’s a strong sell.

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Absolutely. You need to sell the news, not buy! Even moreso if that news is coming from somebody’s YouTube channel!

I can’t see the bubble lasting much longer. It’s totally unsustainable. Then again - Bitcoin isn’t like company shares so who knows really what’ll happen.

You really need to zoom out and look at the bigger picture:

Bitcoin as a long term hold has only ever made investors money and will continue to do so. The fundamentals keep improving, institutions are buying, family offices, billionaires etc. No one is saying put your portfolio on it, but it is prudent to allocate 1 to 5% of your portfolio to this alternative, emerging asset class that is still only a fraction of Gold’s market cap. Think about that.

Still people yelling “tulip” and “bubble” while others make money. There’s risk in not taking risk. Of course BTC is risky, but that’s also why it delivers high rewards (potential losses). If it’s outside your risk appetite, that’s completely fine. But to write it off as a bubble is foolhardy imho especially given it hasn’t touched a trillion market cap yet. Those dollars the FED keeps printing need to find a home and this results in asset inflation.

https://youtu.be/HhOuvNDMlI0

Wrong! You buy and hold, portfolio churn lowers returns for the average investor.

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Is the fact it’s gone up 10 million percent in 10 years not enough to make you question it?

No because it’s maturing and being “financialised” - an academic term from my undergrad sorry. The sentiment around BTC has changed - everyone has changed their tune now it’s had it’s two years in the wilderness written off as “dead” yet again but now it’s surpassed it’s all time high it’s being accepted as a resilient store of value. Don’t be distracted by the currency aspect, view it as an asset class.

Edit:

Also, no because the market is forward looking. You’re looking in the rear view mirror which is an anchoring bias pitfall. What matters is what’s going on now and in future: forecasts have it at anything from $0 (remote but included for the haters) to $100k to $1m per BTC. Personally I think it’s probable (more likely than not) Bitcoin will be worth materially more over the next decade, than not.

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Some stats…

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My problem is that it can’t be viewed as an asset. It has no intrinsic value and isn’t underpinned by anything of value as you would have with normal assets like bonds. It’s just a self perpetuating machine driven by speculation and hype. It can’t be used as currency because it’s too volatile. And it can’t really be an asset as it has no intrinsic value.

Don’t get me wrong, I love blockchain and have traded Bitcoin in the past, but by financial measures, it’s fairly worthless. Really it’s gambling, not investing. You can’t do any DD on it.

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when it is set to close only on 6th jauary in my isa, will it be auto sold or do i at least keep the asset and choose when to sell it?

edit: as i understand it i will no longer be able to buy the BTCE but can continue to track it and sell when i choose. correct?

second edit: thank you to trading212 for your update on teh ETF with the “learn more” button however i ask for more clarification on this item

"This means that you will not be able to open new positions with the instrument and all existing positions can be closed at any time. "

can it please be clarified whether the “close at any time” of existing positions will be with updated and future tracked price of the item or whether it can closed at anytime with a ‘frozen’ price of when you removed the ETF from the platform. the vagueness of your terms is disconcerting. sorry if i do not explain myself well.

Hence why ALTERNATIVE is the key word. Bitcoin is an alternative asset: how hard is this to understand for those so rigid to find a need to box it into a traditional asset box?!

Definition via investopedia:
Alternative assets are those which cannot be categorized as stocks, bonds, or certificates. Some examples of alternative assets include certain real estate investments, pieces of art, jewelry and more.

Incorrect. Fundamental analysis can be applied to Bitcoin, you just can’t necessary use traditional financial metrics that we are taught in finance classes. If you try to do so, it only proves your ignorance, not that Bitcoin is worthless nor gambling I’m sorry, not sorry, to say.

The few examples of the assets you have there have intrinsic value however.

My issue is that Bitcoin isn’t backed by anything except time and electricity. It’s the legitimacy of it as an asset, traditional or alternative, which makes it unattractive. It doesnt have intrinsic value, or utility, and is a self driven instrument.

This parabolic run up will burst, it’s just a matter of time.

Also yes I agree, you can do TA or fundamental analysis on the charts but not DD. It’s too risky for me. There is absolutely no reason why it couldn’t run up or drop a few more thousand in the next few days. It’s that unknown which makes it gambling.

Fine for a little day trading but not much more for me.

How can you say this with a straight face? Literally took 30secs of effort to note this.

This has been pronounced over 100 times and yet here we are going from strength to strength. Of course, it won’t be parabolic forever that’s impossible. Actually no one credible in the space expects this, but what they do expect is a price rise and lower volatility as it matures. This is what will happen: institutional money is sticky, steady hands.

If by DD you mean due diligence then yes you can.

Also does this imply that the position can be closed at any time by T212 or only by the person who owns the instrument?

Once off uses are a proof of concept but not evidence of utility. I don’t know anybody who regularly uses Bitcoin for currency, and for good reason, it’s too volatile.

Also you say “in the space” as if I am not! I’ve been dealing with Bitcoin and blockchain for a few years now, it’s what started my investing!

Anecdotal evidence is useless. There’s a whole world beyond your bubble of friends, colleagues and network. Besides I’m not arguing Bitcoin’s value is derived from it being a currency, my whole point is that this is now secondary: the primary use case for BTC whether you like it or not is as a store of value alternative asset.

What do you define as acceptable utility? I’m genuinely curious.

Apologies, just certain comments you made made you come off as not particularly well informed.

I’m not talking about family or friends, none of them use Bitcoin.

Well if the use case is currency, it can’t have utility as it’s too volatile and unstable. Nobody wants to pay for something or get paid with something which can be worth considerably less at any moment.

Anyway, even as a store of value, how? It has no intrinsic value at all. It doesn’t make sense as a store of value.

You can rest assured that they are indeed informed!

This is basic economics class 101. Simple search for the definition of a store of value (1 of the 3 main functions of money) would yield this for instance:

Store of value. In order to be a medium of exchange, money must hold its value over time; that is, it must be a store of value. If money could not be stored for some period of time and still remain valuable in exchange, it would not solve the double coincidence of wants problem and therefore would not be adopted as a medium of exchange. As a store of value, money is not unique; many other stores of value exist, such as land, works of art, and even baseball cards and stamps. Money may not even be the best store of value because it depreciates with inflation. However, money is more liquid than most other stores of value because as a medium of exchange, it is readily accepted everywhere. Furthermore, money is an easily transported store of value that is available in a number of convenient denominations.

How does BTC not qualify as a store of value given the above? It holds purchasing power over time and over the last decade has proved gives you more purchasing power as time passes (which is by design).

Also, you seem to be stuck on this “intrinsic value” argument. Please outline your understanding of this concept.

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The excerpt you gave there doesn’t apply to Bitcoin though.

It doesn’t hold its value over time, and even here you pointed out it could be potentially financially worthless.