ETF are there hidden fees?

[Jobloggs]

I believe the fees and dividends are totally separate elements.

So the fee will be baked into the share price, and the dividends I assume will be the % of the share price, less the fee.

@RLX will probs be better help than me.

[RLX]

@B.E

Any external fees and charges, concerning the instruments on the platform, can be found, if you :

• Go to our Homepage
• Select Products, then All instruments
• Locate the instrument in question
• Open the KID attached to it on the right

I did some random searches, and no KID, like the most famous Investment Trust, SMT.

A lot of financial products are missing on that products list, Investment Trusts, ETFs, ETNs, ETC, ETPs.

For example:

• The following ETFs don’t even appear the T212 list (missing from T212 list): EUNL, SMH, DBPG, VOOL, ESP0, IWDE. Even doing a broader search by index providers, MSCI and FTSE, the MSCI don’t show any ETF and the FTSE only show 1 ETF (but have KID)

• ETC and ETNs: no Platinum and Palladium products, some Gold and Silver products are missing.

• Leverage Shares and GraniteShares ETPs list on T212 is incomplete.

• Missing Investment Trusts: MNKS, PHI, BGCG, USA, SONG, CHRY, ATT

Probably more products are missing from the T212 product list page.

If people are also choosing T212 by their products availability using that page, it can harm their decision to be a T212 customer.

The hard work of providing the legal documentation could be very lighten by a Morningstar integration that have always the updated legal documentation, besides providing extra information that can improve a better user experience and creating a bigger economic moat for T212 against their competitors.

Morningstar integration in Trading 212

Several investment banks use Morningstar in several ways inside their platforms. The common way is a multi-level integration of Morningstar: 1 - Customers choose the type of financial instrument: Stocks, ETFs, Investment Trusts, Investment Funds, Pension Funds, etc 2 - It opens a new window or new frame inside the investment bank page according to the instrument type initially chosen 3 - The customer can choose several filters to: have more search features, can compare with several inst…

[RLX]

@Dougal1984

I don’t think there is a simple/easy single repository out there to point the link to that would auto update. Would make things much simpler!

Trading 212 can do what some financial institutions already done, having a Morningstar integration, that always have the updated legal documentation. It aggregates Investment Trusts, Investment Funds, ETFs, ETNs, ETCs, And also have stocks…

Morningstar integration in Trading 212

An example of a Morningstar integration within a Portuguese investment bank. There are other ways of integrating Morningstar as seen on other online investment banks, and according to their offer (some have only investment funds and ETFs, others also have Investment Trusts, Stocks, Pension Funds, Real Estate Funds, etc): Investment Funds: [image] ETFs: (I only marked the difference between the Morningstar ETFs search and Investment Funds search above) [image]

[Dougal1984]

Whats your referral fee to Morningstar @RLX ?

[trader787]

is it just me or is this search very slow and hangs for anyone else? eg: try searching for something, remove it try something else, hangs and takes forever, a good job for a dev would be to optimize this so it is useable. tried on a couple of browsers/mobile. here is the link to the page they are referring to:

https://www.trading212.com/en/Trade-Equities

also another point is on mobile I can’t see how to get to here from the homepage since products → all instruments cant be found on mobile unless it’s hidden somewhere.

[RLX]

10 000 000 USD/per each platform customer. LOL

If every stakeholder can have better results, why be an accommodated person? I suppose everyone want more, it’s the human nature, the reason of the human evolution.

[Finki]

@trader787

With my previous broker before you bought an ETF it had a warning checkbox you had to check to say you accept that there are fees and you have read the key investor doc. Now I think about it the FCA might be interested in a company selling ETFs to people without providing them with all info before they buy. Maybe someone else knows the law on that.

This is quite true. Without displaying both accurate Key Info Docs and Costs and Charges figures (in both £$ and %) Trading212 are actually in breach of regulations.

[Finki]

As pointed out by a few users your KIDs are often out of date or simply missing. In the App I think they are not present at all. This is at odds with the Costs and Charges Regulations.

Some have suggested a Morningstar feed. OK, but the price of regulatory data of this kind is no long controlled by the big vendors such as Morningstar anymore.

There are, for example, not many out there that can compete with Oppl.io I saw a demo of theirs recently and it does exactly what T212 would need to be compliant. Latest KIDs and latest Costs and Charges extracted via API or a CSV dump. The cost? It’s free. Yep, I was amazed too. Free. £0.00 They also demonstrated how incumbent vendors have significant levels of inaccuracy in their regulatory documentation feeds. Honestly, you couldn’t make this up. Pay thousands for a feed that’s worse than a feed for £0. The world has gone mad. But that’s where we are. Data is no longer expensive if you go to the right place.

(and yes, I’m annoyed they may have stolen the idea from me… and made it better. If anyone from Oppl.io is part of this community : give me a job!)

[Finki]

@Dougal1984

I don’t think there is a simple/easy single repository out there to point the link to that would auto update. Would make things much simpler!

I had a good attempt at making one at finki.io

But these guys have driven the price to £0. So no point competing! Oppl.io

[EquityInvestor]

@Finki

I had a good attempt at making one at finki.io

But these guys have driven the price to £0. So no point competing! Oppl.io

I am surprised you are mentioning them if they offer similar things to you (eg. ISA Compliance, underlying holdings, etc).
Maybe brokers hadn’t heard about them yet.

Also, why would they do it for free? Where is the catch? Do they intend to offer paid services later?

[Finki]

@EquityInvestor

I am surprised you are mentioning them if they offer similar things to you

I don’t operate finKi anymore … FinKi hasn’t been updated for months … I simply do not have the time to keep it going

[Finki]

@EquityInvestor

Also, why would they do it for free? Where is the catch? Do they intend to offer paid services later?

Paid add-on services, analytics, and something else… I forget… was their answer, I think… I might have switched off!!! Dunno. TBH🤪

[Dougal1984]

@EquityInvestor

Also, why would they do it for free?

They say data is king, and data is the next gold.

[RLX]

@Dougal1984

They say data is king, and data is the next gold.

For the oldest people, maybe they remember the man responsible for the finance courses boom in the last century:

(Also look at the financial data terminals (& screens) in the background at the period. )

For the younger people, it’s the movie Wall Street (1987).

The above Gordon Gekko’s quote and other from him, are my favorites:

Money never sleeps.

The most valuable commodity I know of is information.

[Finki]

That notion probably still stands.

For years the game has been information asymmetry. It is valuable because someone has it and you can’t get it.

Now the game is changing. In the same way T212 and Freetrade have driven the price of brokerage to near zero, market data looks like it is going in the same direction.

If I can hack together finki.io and provide a pretty decent service for £0 - just my time and effort, then someone with more skill (Oppl.io, I assume have more skill) can drive key data points to £0 too. Same as if you want dividend data, for example. I can provide it (I did). Alternatively there is divitrack.io or divvydiary.com - to name just 2. Free or nearly free. Either way it indicates a direction of travel.

Maybe the next battlefield is in broker-adjacent services? Plugging the gaps left behind by startup neobrokerages that “miss” or “mishandle” the regulatory challenges in launching such operations.

[Finki]

Ha!

I chose 1 random ETF. I picked IUKD. I checked Trading212’s “latest” KID. It was dated 2020.

IUKDl_EQ.pdf

I went to iShares website. Latest KID was released in 2021.

I think we can assume the other KIDs are equally out of date.

Also, no Costs and Charges disclosures made as far as I can see.

Come on T212! You’ll get picked on by the FCA (eventually) if you don’t comply.

[Hedge]

so in summary, we are all saying there is charge, but no idea how its applied. I assume it should appear in app at some point and on monthly statements…

[Scrooge_McCodf]

No. Fees are deducted from the value of the fund by the provider. You won’t notice it happening.

[RLX]

@Scrooge_McCodf

Fees are deducted from the value of the fund by the provider. You won’t notice it happening.

Like companies (stocks), Investment Trusts, mutual/investment funds, they all take their fees and expenses during their normal operations.

[EquityInvestor]

@Scrooge_McCodf

You won’t notice it happening.

I agree, usually ETFs for example deduct it daily but as they are usually under 2% annually you don’t realise. At least that is my understanding.